During the All Guilds Meeting Kaelis Ebonrai offered his experience as a Writer to us, to write a social Age where people could get News directly in the Cavern.
This thread is for discussing how you think it should be (a D'ni Location? An age on itself? A big Library? Something more like a Nexus? Public? Instanced?), what should it contain, etc.
Of course everything that is discussed here will have to pass thru Kaelis's judgement and abilities.
So Messengers, how do you think it should be?
I'd like a spot in D'ni itself, rather than a separate age, that way it can be a restored gathering point where the D'ni inhabitants of the Cavern might have gotten their news. I think it should have a large podium where people like cavern criers can stand and distribute news.
Well I had no real ideas yet, so I asked around. things that where mentioned where :
-podium for crier
-lots of papers
first 3 shouldn't be too hard the last one might be a problem. But one of the things we need in there is the newspaper; If it gets revived that is
edit : uhuh aandered by Capella XD
Thanks Leo, for poking me to this topic!
I think all of these are great, and I'm personally in favor of a D'ni Location, as well. =)
Busy, however, might be an interesting issue, and may require actual people being there. =)
The podium for the Crier was not something I had thought of, initially, but I definitely like the idea. =)
As for the newspaper, if you all have copies of the old newspapers, still, I'd love to have a go at converting these to some sort of in-game format. =)
One thing I'm toying around with, is some Imager-like devices, that support KI-notes. =) (if you all like this Idea? It was an experiment I toyed around with my pub office, and in the few online-tests (private shards, during the downtime) I did, it worked wonderfully well. )
At present, unfortunately, the work on the Age will mostly need to wait until PyPRP2 is released, as, at present, there's no way to export a MOUL-compatible Age, from blender, as yet, and no way to get 3dsmax 7 or 8, without piracy, mostly. =) I can export a UCC-compatible Age, however, and that might be interesting until such a time as the MOUL pipeline is better. Of course, this all depends on how Cyan intends to do Fan Ages, on MOULagain ( or, even if they /do/ intend to. =) ).
I can, however, create Age geometry, etc, while waiting. =)
I'm really excited about the possibility of this collaboration, and it'll give me a chance to experiment with my interest in social spaces, as well. =)
btw, welcome to the Messengers family Capella! I hope to see you active soon with the Newspaper. As soon as we find enough people to restore it. As a "Guide to being a Messenger" you can start by the Tutorials Guild Book (column at right ->) and then if you have questions remember we are always here!
I like the idea of a D'ni Location instead of a separate Age,
I htink D´ni location its beter to talk about it .
separate age maybe for something else i think.
In keeping with canon- Ages aren't usually avbailable to everyone, so a D'ni location seems most appropriate. I realize we can't "officially" designate it as the Messenger's Hall, but I would design it as such.
The practicality of creating what we want now comes into play. Without a way of easilt updating it with current news and events, it just becomes abother meeting place, of which there are hundreds in the cavern. I suggest the following:
1. Various imagers to cover different items; news, events, announcements, etc., editable by a select few.
2. Some sort of "live feed" of our website. It becomes labor intensive to have to post the news twice.
3. An archive as mentioned, but possibly one that includes ALL the Myst informational (not linking) books. (This would be an additional draw for people to visit the hall. There may need to be some discussion with Cyan concerning this.)
4. An easy way to add newspapers to the archive.
This idea has been thrown about for some time, it's nice to know we may have a real start on this.
More imagers to divide the informations would be very useful. I have also asked Kaelis if it was possible to make a double way Imager, i.e. you can also download the KImails and pics.
Importing the live feed and the Newspaper issues would require a nice amont of work I believe. Kaelis thought to include our older newspapers in books, using the screenshots of our PDFs, of course that would not be very easy to update.
For the Live Feed, I don't know if python has some extension to easily read the RSS Format, maybe we could ask D'lanor, he seems to know much of python and plasma.
The major problem is that you have to keep in mind that even if it is an Age on its own, it still have to work with the types of content the Game Engine offers. This means mainly KImails, KIpics and books.
If Uru had URL implementation we could just post URLs that would open in the issues in the browser
We are limited to what the client supports... but the client also runs Python code. So I expect you could create objects that, when clicked on, would cause a user's default web browser to open, just as Leo was suggesting.
Mind you, that is not something I think is a good idea; I think it breaks the user experience and we can be more creative than that.
Here's a little more opinion, to push toward another idea - if the guild has an age of their own, it needs to have some reason for explorers to want to come to it. In today's "information society," I think many people are used to having information at their fingertips - through television and radio, through the web on our computers, and now even on our phones. A guild age might be novel at first but I think people would stop coming to it after a few visits... checking our events KImail is faster, more convenient... why link to an age to get the latest news?
One way I think we could attract people to a News Age would be customization - like the RSS feed work for the site which Leonardo has put so much work into, and I'm very excited to see launch.. If we had a way that people could customize their experience, even with the News Age operating as a public age, I think that would be very interesting.
I am thinking a bit about how displays would change as different people walked past them in the movie Minority Report.
(Of course, kaelisebonrai can veto anything suggested that is too complicated, I'm not certain where the boundry lies between "creative" and "unreasonable".)
Hokay.. this one will be a long one... I really wish this forum software supported viewing at least the last few posts in the reply box...
KIpics/KInotes and the downloading of -- If this is possible, I desperately want to do it, and I'll likely implement it into my pub office, as well. This is a feature I've wanted for some time. I'll have to ask around, I'll probably end up poking 'fero. =)
Live Feeds - Personally.. an RSS feed reader --- not too keen on this, my python skills are limited, I'm fairly good at designing socially orientated locations, and for this reason, I really like the idea of this being socially-based. Specifically because most of the locations in uru right now, are not truly designed for social gathering... oddly enough, the kahlo pub does appear to have been intended for this purpose, though it never really was used for that, weirdly.
However, it /may/ be possible (though I cannot test this, annoyingly, until we have a test server, a moul-era uru test server), to use the same method as Sharper's journal, to have updatable books/etc.
As to newspapers in books, it might be possible to do a custom bookgui, and use that for the newspapers, but, don't quote me on that, I'll have a chat to dustin. (again, using the same method as sharper's journal. I've done very few books, but, its... /theoretically/ possible, if I understand things right.)
@Marten: Re: Customisation, how do you mean?
Website viewing: I don't think that'll work, personally. People can currently just alt-tab out, anyways.
Meeting places: There are surprisingly few locations that are truly designed with the concept of being purely for meeting and other social tasks, at least in MOULagain. Most meeting places we have in MOULagain, have their social aspects as secondary design requirements, or at least, so it seems.
Imagers: Definitely. Editable by a select few, possible, but, who's going to maintain that list? You can ask Cyan to, because they're about the only ones who /can/, its their vault, after all. Or, you can get Cyan to directly place the stuff into the Imager, which might have a better success rate. With normal Imagers, I can set it to be only usable by age owners, or not. Trouble is, to my memory, if its a public Age, as in, in the public list, /everyone/ owns it. Now, with the horrible hacks/kludges made to the vault between the pots/uu/etc era vault, and the moul-era vault, (for example, for some reason, they used the python files, etc, to hardcode the UUID of the guild pubs, and k'veer, and stuck them in the Nexus, that way. (this is why we don't see the player numbers in these)) this might be different, now, but, I kinda doubt it.
Re: Minority Report: Got any references for these, no idea what you mean, there. I've seen the movie, but, long ago, don't overly remember them.
Re: Archive: I like the idea, I'd personally advocate an archive of the restoration, but, other archival stuff is up to Cyan. =P
Re: new newspapers to the archive: Best way I can think of this is: As above, using some vault nodes, for the books, then sdl to control visibility of a large number of books, and then switch on the books, as they get updated. World models may be a bit tricky, but, eh. Now, as for how to control the SDL of a fan-age, on MOULagain, and how to allow such vault nodes, like the sharper book, that's all up to Cyan to figure out. I have no control over that.
EDIT: Also, I'd really rather *not* have the location be suggested to be any location owned, previously, by the D'ni Guild of Messengers, before the fall. I'm quite happy to place symbols, indicating the ownership of the Modern/Restored (Human) Guild of Messengers, though.
about the location. I thought next to kadish gallery might be an option. You know by the canyon with all those doors.
btw is concept art wished for? I have been thinking about trying to draw some stuff but if no one is interested, I won't bother.
@Lunanne: I'm afraid we can't do that, that's very much against RAWA's guidelines, and generally is a thing that's not.. well, not done. =P (As much as I'd really love to open up areas in Ae'gura, its something that would probably cause a lot of unnessary DRAMA, and, yeah, its very mch against RAWA's guidelines..)
Concept art is interesting, though it might not get used. Depends. =)
I'm afraid I don't know much about the guidelines but is then not any location in the city not done? That would mean it has to be another age right? So how would it be a d'ni location ?
D'ni is far, far larger than merely Ae'gura. =)
Basically, RAWA's guidelines permit locations in D'ni, however, they must be self-contained. =)
The D'ni cavern is... very, very large. Kirel, and other 'hoods are also parts of D'ni. =) (and so is K'veer, and the "Er'cana City Silo" (and so is Descent, and the, um, non-star Bahro Caves, and the star ones are, kinda-sorta, too (though the bahro caves are Rudenna, another cavern just off the side of what most of us call "The D'ni Cavern")))
"The City" is a reference to Ae'gura to us explorers, but, technically there is what we call "The City Proper" as well. The City Proper is along the walls of the Cavern, whereas Ae'gura is on an island in the middle. =)
D'ni Location just means it would be conceptually located somewhere in the Cavern. It would be a D'ni Location only in an IC way. It would be a complete separate Age File XD Just like Bevin and Ae'gura, they're both in D'ni...but they are definitely not the same Age technically speaking.
EDIT: Kaelis was faster XD
okay I think I understand it now XD forget my comment
Hokay.. spoke to diafero regarding the Two-Way Imager/downloading from Imagers...
I've got bad news:
Well.. Essentially, he put it this way, roughly.. You know Tawah? That's currently the most complex thing with GUIs, we have, at the moment. Supposedly, this is even harder. Its /possible/ but there's no interface for it, so it'll require, for example, alterations to the KI GUI prps, and python, etc. Well beyond the scope of a single Age.
I really like the idea of being able to download items from an imager, and think we should explore this idea further. However; we need to devcide if this is something we want to pursue, or shelf it and work on other things. I have some ideas, but think we should first come up with some specifics as to what we want from the "age".
Purpose? Disseminate news, host meetings, gathering place...
Name? Hall, pub, house, age, hood, building, library...
Location? Cavern proper, island, perimeter, natural, carved...
Size? Single room, stadium, multi-floor, terraced, "inside/outside"...
As mentioned before, downloading things from Imagers is soemthing I really would like to see, just for now, its not quite in our reach. As I mentioned to Leo, in an IM..
"Just because its not in the initial release, it doesn't mean it can't happen in a later release." =)
Regarding library, as a name... there was once a plan, a long time ago, to make a fan-age library age, Cyan denied it on the grounds that they reserve the rights to d'ni libraries, etc. This was some time ago, however, so.. I don't know their current stance, but, I'd advise against the concept of it being a "library".
Purpose: That's up to you guys, but, be practical, and this purpose, will influence design, and size, location as well.
Location: RAWA's guidelines specify all D'ni locations be "self contained" but anything that meets these things is fine by me, basically.. it can't be tied down, necessarily to a specific spot in the Cavern. I mean, it could be on the shore of the Lake, but, you can't see Ae'gura, for example, because that'd tie down its location.
Size, as I mentioned is dependant on purpose, the two aren't really independant. =)
Anyways, that's where I'll leave this post, perhaps i'll be able to get to more of it, soon =)
EDIT: seems like it doesn't need more, thinking about it, the post is done. =P
Sorry for the late update.
My thoughts on a "Minority Report" environment would be that as people walked past the imagers (which we know have proximity detectors), the content of the imagers could change automatically.
As an example (not even a very good example, but to stir conversation), maybe the Age includes an image of Myst that will only appear on the imager if a player who has already reached Myst walks by the imager.
Applying this idea to the news age, it would be nice if players' preferred "subscriptions" appeared on imagers as they approached them.
Very simple suggestions for an age name: The GoMe Information Center ( or The News Hub )
don't worry about being late, Marten, I'm much, much later.
the proximity detection stuff is essentially done via regions, so, I suspect there'd need to be some really insane python stuff done, to, say.. hook up some things.
Things I /think/ need hooking up:
-Some way of controling what order stuff displays on Imagers.
-Some way of detecting what's in the AgesIOwn (I think that was its name) Vault "Folder" for the Avatar..
-Some way of making those two work together, when in a certain region.
all of these aren't really possible, with the normal Imager stuff. There's likely a /way/ of doing it. But.. its certainly going to be tricky. Again, looks like I might have to poke one of the python experts. =P
Any other suggestions? =)
Going to present a view from a Guild newbie.. its still sort of an outsider view on this.
Firstly, I don't see why we wouldn't have a separate age. While the cavern would be nice, the only logical place would be on an outlying island .. and it would have to be the Guild Hall that people went to. The messengers were a vital guild, but they were not always the best supplied. The odds of them having a Guild Hall AND a news hub would be... slim at best.
However as such an important Guild they would have access to an Age for linking. Likely to allow the messenger to bounce around to locations within D'ni with speed. True... they did have the transports, but within Ae'gura they would likely have a method of transport. As we know, you cant link from one place in an Age to another within the same Age. The "Nexus" Was not an official part of canon until Uru really... so that would lead me to believe that the messengers likely had a book in their hall linking to their Age.. and within it they would have had means to travel to places within Ae'gura. In fact, I see it as an Age that functioned similarly to the nexus we have now... sans all the whirring machinery and... depressing gloom.
Besides, if there was an offer to give us an Age, why not take them up on it? There is far more customization available to a different world than a closed in space within the Cavern. Weather and Time changes are always nice.
It is said that as many days as there are in the whole journey, so many are the men and horses that stand along the road, each horse and man at the interval of a day’s journey; and these are stayed neither by snow nor rain nor heat nor darkness from accomplishing their appointed course with all speed.
My original intent was not to have it be owned by the D'ni Guild of Messengers. =) You'll find that ICly, most of the restored guilds don't own, or in some cases, even have access to, the original locations of the D'ni Guilds they are modelled on. =)
Technically, the offer (I made the offer) was a social location, using "age" as the technical form, a .age file with associated .prp files =P
Note that the Cavern is /far/ bigger than just Ae'gura.
Also note that the Nexus has kinda been placed into canon as a semi-major thing. >.>
The cavern wall is also fairly logical, as that was where the main city was, in D'ni. There were also several outlying, less developed caverns, such as Rudenna. =)
But, you may be right - another Age is possible, but it will also mean much more time concepting the buildings, and will make having D'ni imagers much less likely, as they'll need to be sourced from somewhere. =P
but I am definitely against the Age/Location being owned by the original D'ni Guild of Messengers. =P That sort of thing opens a whole can of worms I'd rather not go near. =P
Well thats fair enough. There is truth in not having access to original guild locations. It is in that statement that I can't find any good response hehe.
With that said, the cavern itself might still be an issue. You see the major problem I have with the cavern is the DRC. From a purely roleplaying standpoint the DRC is a monstrous disaster that would only lend us use of a facility / differently layed out bevin / small can of coke ... with much prodding and begging. To me, I always got the vibe that the DRC wanted guilds around as a novelty. Yes I know that if MO: RE ever came out we are the builders but still. From a roleplaying view the DRC would still be the end all. And from a realistic standpoint RAWA's rules will always apply.
Yeah the Nexus sort of got forced in there like aliens into Indiana Jones.
The smaller caverns, in my view, might be even harder to get into than this one... don't you think?
While we're spitballing, why not pull a Phil's Relto on it? If that relto has proven anything is that they ALL don't have to fall into the cookie cutter mold we seem to all have. Hell his got flooded and its almost night.
And I can't make any comment on the imagers. I'm not technical on the software side of computing so ... I dunno.
Heck tho, I'd love to base the messengers outside the cavern. And if its in this age and not another (aka the Nexus is still the hub hehe) then why not build a location up on the surface? The Messengers seem to be the only guild that would logically want to be up there. Utilizing printing presses etc. Who was to say we do all our work using D'ni tech? The Greeters would not be the logical choice for an above ground center, because they are a transitional guild. So their place will always be in the cavern. But heck, why don't we have a post office like building up top. I like New Mexico *laughs*
That may be an idea XD Usually when you think of making an Age you think if it has to be a D'ni Location or a separate Age, but the idea of placing it on the surface never touch my mind. That's original.
This also reminds me that one of our Affiliates, the Cavern Communications Network, had an IC story of having a Surface Office...that in some way disappeared XD It was built in Second Life in the Eder D'Uru sim.
While placing a news center on the surface sounds like an interesting idea to me, I think we could experience some IC problems with that. The D'ni possessed no books to the surface, and none of us is able to (IC) write new linking books - plus we don't have any of that beetle ink.
But it would be nice - we could put the GoMe and rel.to webservers into the basement there.
Well that depends on two things. One - are we sure? We do know there is in fact a Book of Earth. So it was possible, as the D'ni did link here originally and built the cavern lol. Second, there is a Cleft book - which links to the surface in the cleft.
We don't actually know if there were not surface books EXCEPT for the fact that they had never broken through. And Atrius also states that they had no need because 1)they didn't want to go up 2) you would have to store it elsewhere because you can't link to the same age.
It may take some suspension of disbelief and some creativity but we could figure out a reason for it. Heck we could just make the excuse that you actually just used the cleft book then "went" to the office on foot :P
Or like the link back to your relto or such I can explain it better. Say you leave or want to leave our place. you see a bus or truck there, you click the doors. Boom. it links you. And the IC explanation is it drove you back to the cleft and you went home. Or you can always relto back. But thats what I mean, theres always a plausible explanation.
Okay, now that wasn't entirely kosher. Of course there is a descriptive book to D'ni (it must still exist, otherwise the linking books wouldn't work anymore - guess it's still on Gaternay and somehow survived its destruction), but it led to the underground Caverns, probably to the place where the Great Zero is now. And the book to the Cleft was written long after the Fall by Yeesha, who hasn't proven too helpful towards the guilds up to now and probably wouldn't write a book to a house in Carlsbad just because we wanted one.
We could have a shuttlebus - but honestly, what good is a news place if you have to drive IC for dunno how long to reach it? Besides, up to now everything has been in real time. I don't feel to comfortable changing that.
Don't get me wrong, I kind of like the idea of having a surface place (even if the DRC never left the Cavern except when on holiday). It's just that it produces a lot of inconsistences for IC fanatics (like me). I still vote for a nice place in the Cavern that we could reach over the Nexus. The entry hall of a guild master's house in J'Taeri would be nice, for example. We could bring unused lattice-compatible imagers we found lying around in a basement somewhere else.
It was too Kosher, lol I was just setting up the point. Sure the original book would be lost. I simply mentioned it as the D'ni often had books linking to other areas of that particular age. It is possible for more to / have once existed. They would be beyond the knowledge of any living in the novels so its feasible. But the Cleft book does exist. I simply was pointing those things out. The whole point was the using the cleft to get to our place. With that said. You do realize for the size of operation we'd have we would likely have a above ground thing anyhow. Messengers don't HAVE to only exist within the Caverns.
Besides I live IC too and thing is. I would surface all the time. An explore is all well and good but I do have a home and am not being paid to pitch a tent down in the caverns :P Though good point about the realtime issue. I can't offer a workaround of that so ok...surface out.
That said, if we are just picking places to go in the cavern one can't suddenly disallow the original Guild Hall. I mean if we are just going to select somewhere that would leave the Guild Hall and even the likely Guild Island. I just fail to see a difference in reopening a logical guild location versus just picking up a structure and adapting it. To my knowledge aside from decay...the only really untouchable guild related locale was the inkworks which not only has decay but got sabotaged.
I vote for the hall if we wont be surfacing because the place would be large enough to set aside an area for us new Guildies and following DRC tradition, cone the bulk of it off.
Would allow a builder to make it "seem" bigger than it is and not have to actually build a huge Guild Hall. And leave room for expansion someday.
The Guild Hall's also my favorite. As I said two or three or four times. Honestly, who among us doesn't want to get past the Curtain at last?
And it's a good idea to restrict it, too. We were all like "We don't need a DRC anymore, away with those blasted cones!" and now there will be Maintainers' barricades. Funny idea.
What do you think about it, people?